I need help with my front end alignment

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Cunis
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Enregistré le : 25-nov.-2005 19:15
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Re: I need help with my front end alignment

Hi Brian.

For the lower part I'm not sure it plays on geometry.

The top one is certain.

The lower part I could do this tomorrow
Cordialement.

Pascal.

Alpine A310 01/1982, Blanc Gardénia, chassis 49194.
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Dallarax19
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Re: I need help with my front end alignment

Here is an update from yesterdays study. I will fabricate up the bracket the Pascal posted and look at what impact it has.'


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Brian Staley
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1981 310 V6
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Re: I need help with my front end alignment

Hi Brian,

You do not have the repair manual even in french?

Because in the manual it says that we must put the "JIG" with the car landed on the wheels and a flat floor. this must be why you can not implement the "jig" on a bridge and hanging wheel.

Sorry, I have not had time to do the pattern of the bottom piece.

I'll try in the morning.

HS :Sorry if my English is not always good. I took a few lessons, but I still work.

Regards.

Pascal.
Cordialement.

Pascal.

Alpine A310 01/1982, Blanc Gardénia, chassis 49194.
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Re: I need help with my front end alignment

Hey Pascal,

As usual your english is excellent. I have a manual in German (book) and I have a file on my computer of a French manual. I do not speak either. The French does not translate as well as the German so I use that one primarily. With that said the illustrations etc have not copied very well. No need to provide the dimensions for the lower plate, I will measure the car and create a template.

Still some odd issues. For my car the jig cannot be used with the springs in and the car on the ground. The springs will not compress enough. I will try the new bracket later today. I will also look again in the French manual and see if I can find any other key points.

Regards,
Brian
Brian Staley
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1981 310 V6
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Re: I need help with my front end alignment

Hey Brian,
For my car the jig cannot be used with the springs in and the car on the ground. The springs will not compress enough.
:thinking: :thinking: :thinking:

Would you have a photo to show me?

In the limit I find it normal, since you short springs.

So how do geometry in the rules?

Very, very strange.

@+ Pascal.
Cordialement.

Pascal.

Alpine A310 01/1982, Blanc Gardénia, chassis 49194.
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Re: I need help with my front end alignment

Hello Pascal,

I will try to video the walk through the issue tonight and post it. The springs are shorter but the spring rate is higher. Simon's explanation is the spring is shorter so there should be no problem - I don't believe they have accounted for the spring rate. F=kx (Force = spring rate x deflection) or (deflection = Force/spring rate). You should get more deflection from the stock spring assuming it is a softer spring but how much I have no idea (I would need the wire diameter, coil inner dia or outer dia, free length and number of active coils to calculate or if someone knows the rate post it). Also important is the spring perch and its location. I think a video illustration would make it clearer. I don't think my picture explanation is doing a great job. :wink:

This is the photo showing the condition. The hydraulic jack, which is not shown, is lifting the tire to where the car starts to lift off of the jack stand, which is shown.
Image

To get the jig and bolt to align the wheel would have to lift higher (compress the spring). I had a friend come walk through the issue with me this weekend and we both have come to the same conclusion that the spring rate is too high for the length of the spring. I need to update my slide because I have a typo, the Fleishman F14 rate should be 350lbf/in. I have to fabricate a couple parts and will follow up later this week or next week. I am going to change the spring retainers so I can adjust the car like a race car. The issue should be resolved then.
Brian Staley
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1981 310 V6
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Re: I need help with my front end alignment

So a couple lessons learned
A) A wise man on this site recommended I just modify the tie rod ends and set the toe (he was right)
B) After fitting up the aftermarket shocks and springs I had to modify the kit so I could get the car to meet the static suspension setting, in the end I should have just stayed with the OEM stock shocks and springs :wink: I appreciate the general opinion of the FAR posters that recommend to leave the car alone and keep it as Alpine made it
C) I learned quite a bit about this suspension and really appreciate the information on the static setting tool and observation I was missing the small lower control arm brackets


OK here is the update

1) The original toe issue was resolved by cutting the threaded end on the tie rod ball studs (getting the car to static position made little if any change to the toe)

2) The SPAX/Eiback kit will work but the car will be 25mm-30mm higher than the stock static position

3) I modified the front shock and spring to get the car to static position and all seems to be working great



Toe issue:
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SPAX/Eibach Installation Points:

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Modified Suspension - Static Height Setting

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Brian Staley
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1981 310 V6
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Holley Sniper 2300
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Dbilas 292 Sport Cam
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Re: I need help with my front end alignment

Hi Briand.

Superb reportage.

In summary, you think the springs sold by "simon" do not go to the front?

If that's right, it's strange, because members of the forum have this arrangement and not had a problem.

It must be, pass the information to the ball too long?

Good work.

Regards Pascal.
Cordialement.

Pascal.

Alpine A310 01/1982, Blanc Gardénia, chassis 49194.
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Re: I need help with my front end alignment

Hey Pascal!

I think the Simon kit is OK for some people but was a disappointment for me. I wanted to lower the car but the kit does the opposite and will raise the car. I have seen only three references on the topic but this link show exactly what I discovered:
http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/ ... -v6?page=2

Another referenced the same height issue and the third was for a set for sale on Leboncoin. Aside from those posts I have not seen another owner/installer account.

I would really like to hear from another owner that has installed the SPAX/Eibach kit but no one has come forward and made any comments or recommendations. I have to believe their cars are sitting high unless they modified the front shock and spring like I did.

The key thing that really bought everything together was your question concerning the "static" set up. Without that recommendation to use the setting jig/check gauge I would have been really "flying blind". I really appreciate that information. If I were to guess I would say most people don't use the static gauge and if the other parts fit correctly the car can be aligned to spec with the exception of the height. Most probably don't even know of the difference.

If I was to do rally racing and needed more ground clearance the kit may have been a good choice but I am a road race guy and wanted to reduce the clearance.

Andreas (Simon) said they have sold over 200 kits over 20 years and they have never had any complaints before so my guess is most people are OK with the height change.

I am happy with how it turned out. I expected it to be rough riding like a racing suspension but it is not. I was concerned I may have over done it and the drive would be uncomfortable for any passengers. I have a full race set up on my Fiat and it is really too rough for street driving. It is excellent for 45 minutes or so and then is just too much after that. I don't know how my Alpine will really handle yet for aggressive driving but for touring I could see driving a long commute or trip comfortably.
Brian Staley
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1981 310 V6
47854
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SPAX Eibach Adj Shocks
Dbilas 292 Sport Cam
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Re: I need help with my front end alignment

I don't know which size you have got for your shock absorber but there is 2 lenght size
You must have the short one to fit with Eibach and get the widest range of height adjustment
310 V6 Pack GT AM 1983
Dieu a crée la terre mais Monsieur Rédélé a inventé l'@lpine !
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Re: I need help with my front end alignment

I had heard that before but have not got an actual confirmation that it is true. When I asked Simon about the lengths for the front the response I received was stated above. Maybe you have another answer and can help. I have three questions:

1) Would you know the height difference?
2) Do you know the height dimensions of the shorter one (I have no idea if I have a shorter or longer one)?
3) Have you installed this shock kit on your car or another car?

Information would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Brian
Brian Staley
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1981 310 V6
47854
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SPAX Eibach Adj Shocks
Dbilas 292 Sport Cam
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Re: I need help with my front end alignment

Hi Brian
At the moment I have changed only the rear one on my car
There is 28 points for the hardness
Reference by Simon shop is 241017 (Spax G1621)
The "long" one is ref 111025A, I do not know Spax ref.

This winter I will change the front ones by ref 241016 (Spax G1611)
The long one is 121020A, I do not know Spax ref.


I also do not know lenght of each but what is sure is that there is one size for "standart" springs and another size for Eibach short springs. Unfortunately there is no details on the Simon shop but I think Pascal/Cunis have all details from Spax

When you have this, specially for the rear you can then adjust the height and there is still possibility if you wish less than factory standart.
For the front I do not know yet but I will change for short one, better with Eibach spring

Sorry but I can not give you more information.
I think you have the good shock absorber
Mstef (another Farnaute) has changed recently the front one, perhaps he can give you more details
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=34962&p=333656&hilit=mstef#p333656
310 V6 Pack GT AM 1983
Dieu a crée la terre mais Monsieur Rédélé a inventé l'@lpine !
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Re: I need help with my front end alignment

OK thanks I will check. I bought the kit 241009
http://www.simon-auto-shop.com/shop/cgi ... ieterID=16

I really have no idea which shock the kit includes but I will try to see if I can get a mfgr part number off of the shock.

I will give MStef a shout.

Thanks
Brian
Brian Staley
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1981 310 V6
47854
Holley Sniper 2300
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SPAX Eibach Adj Shocks
Dbilas 292 Sport Cam
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Re: I need help with my front end alignment

Hey Brian,

The photos on the post are no longer visible.

Would you have a document on the document, because I am doing some research on the subject.

In advance, thank you for your help.

My personal email: pascal.colas01@free.fr

Best regards.

Pascal.
Cordialement.

Pascal.

Alpine A310 01/1982, Blanc Gardénia, chassis 49194.
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Re: I need help with my front end alignment

Bonjour Pascal,

Je n'ai pas oublié votre demande. J'ai dû rassembler toutes mes notes sur un seul document, donc tout est logique. Les notes semblent aléatoires sans explication. Je suis sur les dernières sections, donc je devrais vous les avoir bientôt. Je posterai encore quelques clés sur FAR. Ça a été un bon exercice parce que mes notes se trouvaient sur deux ordinateurs différents et dans mon journal de bord. Maintenant, ils seront dans un endroit pour une référence rapide.

Cordialement,
Brian
Brian Staley
USA
1981 310 V6
47854
Holley Sniper 2300
Ported Heads
SPAX Eibach Adj Shocks
Dbilas 292 Sport Cam
Header
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Re: I need help with my front end alignment

Hey,

In advance, thank you Brian.

Best regards.

Pascal. ;)
Cordialement.

Pascal.

Alpine A310 01/1982, Blanc Gardénia, chassis 49194.
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